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TOPIC: SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate

SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #62888

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Edit: so this turned out a lot longer than I intended. Read if you like, but its LONG.

This is likely one of the most debated topics I've seen in my short while playing this game. From my first flight as an Aspirant, I have fallen victim to this practice. Here's my thoughts and personal views of the practice.

What is spawn killing? It's when one player shoots and kills another player as they spawn or regenerate from their last demise. The victim is shot or bombed before they have a chance to get off the ground and defend themself.

Spawn killing is wrong, unless it isn't. Confused? So was I when I heard this said by many or similar statements said. Let me explain it as I understand it. SKing is inherently wrong when I a player camps over a spawning site and repeatedly kills the same player(s) over and over and over. It is especially heinous when one does this from a tank sitting on the runway.

SKing is acceptable if you or a teammate is coming in on a bombing run and you are providing cover to allow proper placement of said bomb(s), the evil red hangars/carrier. In Zeppelin games it customarily acceptable to spawn kill, relentlessly. It is the nature of the that game. It going to happen and does not offend me anyway.

So, spawn kill away(you have my permission & leave to do so), if its in support of the mission or defense of a teammate. It honorable and part of the game. Honestly, the real pilots which are the historical basis of this game would certainly have and did shoot every enemy on the ground they could. It was a matter of life and death and duty.

However, if you are doing it relentlessly and merely for your own entertainment/stats (I'm keeping you away from my kids and puppies, you freakin' psychopath) it is wrong. It is a "Game-ruining" act if done so for those reasons. It is cheap and dishonorable and speaks poorly of those yahoos that do it. If you really want to build your stats, do it in the air, show your skill and earn the respect of others. This is a great game and Joaquin and the others that created and maintain it do it for a living. You know, they get paid for the game. And guess who is paying now and in the future? That's right it's those lowly newbies. And why do they pay? The same reason you did. You fell in love with the game and wanted to play more, better, in faster planes. This practice, unchecked will drive them away. So if you have no respect for your fellow pilots, have some for those folks that have brought you so much entertainment.

Now, somebody put the stool back so I can get off the gigantic soapbox.

Thanks,
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Last edit: by ParrotHead.

SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #62995

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I agree with that. People should only span kill if it is absolutely necessary to complete a mission, o, as u said, if it suits the game. Oh and lol, I've seen longer posts :P ;)
Tho it still hurts my Bain to read that lol :S :lol: to much knowledge....
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63008

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I agree with most of what your saying here, mostly. I differ with there should be no spawn killing of any pilot under level 5. I myself don't use the practice of spawn killing except for schooling reasons..... For instance the players who are spawn killing, certainly will be if I'm over there base as they spawn.... Or (my pet peeve...) TEAM KILLERS!!!!! I personally feel that they are the filth and will be dispersed at every convenience including but not limited to spawn...

That said, like everyone else who has played this amencially entertaining game for more then a moment has been killed at spawn at one time or another..... Myself many, many times.... In the same game even. This can give one the attitude of "it happened me it will for you so stop crying!!!" A sort of baptism by fire. Easy to feel that way, but I too believe it hurts the growth of the game.

There is an ace, Bomber, who has an interesting take on this subject, but I'll let him explain his position in case I miss understood his reasoning. Hopefully he will. Its a very good argument.

Flyin and dyin
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63009

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I think that people just use the excuse "to let the bombers in" to spawn kill. I dont like using excuses and its the way how i learned how to play the game, by spawn killing. So i spawn kill, some people dont like it and complain, others just play and get better. I am the one who didn't complain, dentinhead never complained, skydavis never complained, watup never complained and so on. People ask how does it make u better- well here's my take on it and what i have observed; when someone is spawn killing u, it makes u mad, u get mad so u try to chase and kill the spawn kill and eventually u will succeed, i can't spawn kill dent anymore and can't even beat him in a chase anymore. If the enemy just left then the person who was gonna get spawn kied would never get to chase, so he would never get better.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63029

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I never got mad at ya bomber....I'd spawn into a game and boom "hey bomber"....and LMAO....you'd get me laughin so stinkin hard....I was in lot's of game's with you over a year ago....alway's on the opposite side...was lot's of fun even with the death's I racked up....... ;)


bomber never once spawnkilled me with a tank....alway's with a plane.
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Last edit: by Dentinhead.

SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63031

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Yea too bad i dont get to see u anymore. I always love playing with u. And i have played with watupdogfight so many times, but we were rarly on the same team, like 10-15 games max, he always loved a challenge and so did i,just he game me alot of trouble. He spawn killed me ruthlessly but i didn't mind. Its just part of the game.

Spawn killing with a tank never helps u get better. So i dont do it, otherwise it is so much easier to make points. I saw samweb spawn kill with a tank when i was a noob and me made like 60kills in like 2 min. He also spawn killed me with a plane but i didn't respect him when he spawn killed with a tank, but with plane it was always fun
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Last edit: by bomer1.

SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63039

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Hi all I have been reading (translating it). And really I think what my fellow bomber. You must know how to be a good spawn kill. Personally I could never kill many still tanking, porqu'm not good. But when I plane. I received my good beatings by example what up the dog (the best player I've seen so far), and others like dentin, Bomber, The Vampire, and etc etc etc ... Unable to take off is very ugly, but it can be done, it takes practice, try to think and not be swayed by anger generated not take off. I agree with Spawn Kill. must know how to do it again, not all do. And remember that you can take off, is to wait the time, such as the spawn kill are wrong and the help of a partner.
Gentlemen, I agree that we do with the rookies, more pilots to join the game. But the highest ranking level 6 I totally agree you can do spawn kill.
Greetings from Bs As ARGENTINA and sorry for my English (because my English is very basic) right through the translator wrote.


Nos cruzamos por el aire....
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63049

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Spawnkilling never makes u a better pilot. Look at me im a high rank and never spawnkilled to get there. I cant STAND bombers view. It destroys the game. Skydavis does NOT approve of your view so do NOT speak for him Bomber. I also dont believe in the rank limit. My view matches stormbringerfasts view which is NEVER. If you complain about protecting a bomber coming in then find another way to fly so the spawning pilot doesnt shoot you. There is never a reason to spawnkill. I never used it to get my rank, quit games and find others where there are no spawnkilling and i fly with very high ranks. The point is bombers view is an EXTREME minority. Thank God.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63052

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Spawnkilling does NOT show ability. I dont buy the lack of logic of bomber and enzo. Thank God 99% of games i see no spawnkilling so to be honest i dont need spawnkilling and others should need it either. I see no point. Why make people mad unnecessarily? All of what bomber and enzo are saying are just excuses and not a show of ability.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63055

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Vortex. I love your argument. Its awesome. I would use this logic to disprove point three. Just because zuperman cant prevent soawnkilling due to system limitations (statements direct quote from zuperman) doesnt mean it is an acceptable part of the game of dogfight. The standard of never doing it is not diminished by zuperman not being able to prevent it.

Im glad and proud of my high rank without spawnkilling. Im also proud of finding other ways to bombing hangers without spawnkilling cause it can be done by flying from different directions into enemy base.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63058

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Thank you all for your insight. Yes, even Bomber and Enzo. Writing this thread was more a therapeutic exercise for me than anything else. I didn't expect much response and certainly didn't expect it to be "stickyed" (kind of honored by that). What I did expect was being flamed as a whiner and plummeting karma, not my intent either.

However, I am pleasantly surprised by the open civilized responses. What a great community! Thanks guys.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63061

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Oh the spawning, the spawning, in fact I recently was in a game-wont mention anyone or out them on the spot for doing it. But I'll say if I wasn't with Enigmas- I certainly would probably do it. Not for the points hell you can have them all. When it happen yeah you get a little upset, but you can choose to stay, or hit the brakes and wait for that moment. There's no challenge in spinning around over the enemies base preventing anyone from taking off. There's just no skill, I'll tell you so..., most of you are in fact long time players, but you still get the rush in doing so. You want spawning to stop, hell make the start a little quicker (throttle up-take off) think about it, whether you got shot down or just entered a game and throttle up, how much time is it taking you. I could sip my coffee and light a smoke geez help me out here, some one give me a push down the run-way...I didn't like spawning before, I don't like it now, if I'm in hangers and get the chance to drop, I will, and return out of the enemy zone before I strike again, that's funny most likely I get taken out anyways...lol.
Well that is all
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63067

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I admit I occasionaly spwan kill and I used to a lot.
I have reasons not all will agree but here they are. I shoot people on spawn when I am coming into bomb and they could take off and shoot me directly I don't do it for points.
I used to spawn kill regularly when you could shoot on ground and id fired straight forward not at like a 45 degree angle. I spwankilled 420 gyshan ernstundet criminal minds and even zuperman himself.
I don't agree with spawn killing I only do it like once a day for a REAL reason. Not for points
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63068

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Swop i didnt say to gain points/rank, i was talking about skill. My points scale is stuck on 100000/1000000 so spawn killing isn't about points t me. and i said that sky never complains about it, he just gets off using the brake and kills me.

Also people who dont like spawn killing, then use the brake to lift off, its not that hard.

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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63072

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doughens wrote: Spawnkilling never makes u a better pilot. Look at me im a high rank and never spawnkilled to get there. I cant STAND bombers view. It destroys the game. Skydavis does NOT approve of your view so do NOT speak for him Bomber. I also dont believe in the rank limit. My view matches stormbringerfasts view which is NEVER. If you complain about protecting a bomber coming in then find another way to fly so the spawning pilot doesnt shoot you. There is never a reason to spawnkill. I never used it to get my rank, quit games and find others where there are no spawnkilling and i fly with very high ranks. The point is bombers view is an EXTREME minority. Thank God.


I couldn't agree with you more! I think it's a total cop out. It sends a bad message to the newer players, takes very little skill and is completely classless. I tend to leave the lower ranked players alone all together when there is someone of a higher skill/rank in the game that I can be challenged by. In every case I will let you get off the ground, no matter the rank. In a lot of cases I usually let the other player have the first shot. It's fun developing tactics to avoid the stream of bullets and lets me know that you're up for a go (a lot of lower rank players just fly the other way to avoid a higher rank. I know I did at first) You shoot first...I shoot last. It doesn't always work out for me but I like the challenge. The only exception in my opinion is using it as a tool to suppress a team killer/spawn killer in order to show them the errors of their ways. ;)
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63079

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I actually have respect for bomber. I started doing better and was able to figure out how to get off the ground and start making it hard for him.....he took me on on some chases only with no shooting, after we played for awhile. I will also say it got to the point he'd let me take off because I would lol and LMFAO all the time...I always had fun with him, greenfreedom and some other's....Those people helped me out alot....I never did take up spawnkilling....But now I can most of the time get away from it and at least have a chance....
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63096

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I tend not to engage in this perennial debate, mainly because its terms lack precise definition. Hats off to ParrotHead for articulating as good (and narrow) a definition of "spawnkilling" as we're likely to see. But based on the in-game howls of protest I've been seeing lately, a lot of people define it way more broadly, more like, "being shot down anywhere within fifty plane lengths of the respawn point." LOL !


But even ParrotHead's definition is problematic. Define "off the ground" for example.

Then explain how I'm supposed to tell whether any given plane is "off the ground" or not in that thicket of respawning planes all of which to my aging eyes squinting at this tiny phone screen look smaller than a gnat's arse as I'm hurtling toward said thicket while laden with a bomb and dodging bullets from all directions!

LOL! While you're at it, tell me how many angels can fit on the head of a pin!

Anyway, for the record, I am firmly agnostic on the issue. Which means I'm a card-carrying Dentonian. :)

But hell yes I will indiscriminately shoot first into any oncoming bullet-emitting cloud of red gnat-arses while bringin it with a bomb, and ask questions (or apologize) later. :) beyond that its a judgment call based on local conditions, relative strength, numbers and experience of opposition, etc.

I take no position on the "morality" of spawnkilling. I mean, c'mon people! It's a game! Life's too short to get too worked up over it. And as to whether or not it "discourages" new players, I have no idea. I just know it never discouraged me, and I've been spawnkilled countless times by countless players of all ranks and at every level.

But I consider it a badge of honor from artists like Bomber and Enzo. :)
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63113

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But games are about rules and about playing with honor. There is no honor in spawnkilling and spawnkilling doesnt make one a better pilot and spawnkilling takes no skill.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63116

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Bopes, it 42... And I agree on the point of gnats' arses (arsi? Arsies?, hell I don't know). If I'm dropping the package, I'm full on the fire button if I see anything remotely resembling red.

For clarification purposes, the worst spawn killing experience I had was at the hands of bomber and several like minded pilots. Hamers was on my team as well and we both got pretty frustrated. We were outnumbered 5/3. Reds were all air Marshalls (I was lvl 9 or 10) and they were in a perfect camping circle merry go round that meant we were slaughtered, with absolutely no chance to get off the ground, no matter whether you were using brakes or not. And I wouldn't have known how anyway. This was a BTB game. NOBODY was worried about bombing, just the unmitigated rape of helpless targets on the tarmac. After my 7th or 8th death, I admit I was pissed. Asked for relief and was told learn how to take off, "I'm making you a better pilot". Sorry but that's crap! That was not for my benefit and for anyone to pretend it was is childish and immature. Now with that said, I've learned a little more about how to deal with it. I am better, but not because of that experience. It was the Rubicon moment for me. I'm just glad I decided to stay. I enjoy this game, forum and community far more than this issue bugs me.

Thanks all again for chiming in.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63119

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I never mentioned points in any way from my points. I also dont think you read my entire posts. I have multiple levels of logic pointing out why No one should do this. It doesn't make one a better pilot. Im a high rank not in any way from spawnkilling either from people doing it to me and i never spawnkill. I see no problem people complaining about it. If people dont like people complaining about it then i suggest u leave. I have no respect for anyone who does it, supports it, etc. im an awesome player NOT from spawnkilling. Im also able to bomb hangers without spawnkilling by having extra ability to find other places to bomb at a base besides the entrance.

I dont see any point or reason for spawnkilling to be part of the game of dogfight. If its supposed to be fun then one should take into consideration others. The fact of the matter is zuperman has been trying from a system standpoint to eliminate this as part of the game. I have even read it quoted by him. There are system limitations. So if one wants to respect the creater of the game then we all should refrain.

Vortex said some additional points of logic that are rock solid in addition to mine.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63120

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we have the same debates and arguments in the ww2 air combat forums. there are 2 schools of thought for this:

1 it is a hideous, cheesy tactic that people who cant match you in the air use to get cheap points. fair play says you should let me take off and get into the air to joust with me....

2 it was used in the real war. no pilot in their right mind would give you a sporting shot at them if they could take you down. Richthofen would slap you silly for even thinking this way....

the 2 schools will never see eye to eye....and you know what both are right. the ww2 operation Bodenplatte was an attack designed to catch all the allied planes on the ground and hit them. if any were taking off they were meat on the table. most of the german jets were shot down either landing or taking off.

personally i dont like it and dont play that way. the only way to truly stop it is to be able to spawn at different places or in the air....or be able to kick a player. give them a warning....we dont do that in this game...if they do it again...boot them. most of those guys once they get on the receiving end dont like it.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63122

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I never mentioned points in any of my posts. You didnt read them in their entirety. The fact is we shouldn't see anyone doing it and there are many high ranking pilots who never do it and are successful not because if it. No one should have to go through any spawnkilling. It doesn't make one a good pilot and it really isn't a sign of ones ability. How difficult is it to kill a pilot when he hasn't taken off the runway? There really is no point.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63124

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I actually can tell you. Angels on a pin. A third of the angels were kicked out of heaven which means there is a finite number of angels. A pin is finite. So the answer to your question of how many angels can fit in a pin in the eyes of God is all of them. At the same time since God is not bound by time and location or geometry except when He is relating to us do we understand. Then this is also in an infinite way. /$:)
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63126

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Bopes i really take offense to the angels on a pin refernce. Its disrespectful to those who have a deep hearted Faith in the one true God.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63129

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points...rank...just to get the kill.....it doesnt matter. its not a question of how hard it is to get kills. its a question of changing a persons mind and way of thinking. <<<<< good luck with doing that. people have their reasons and own personal views on things....in their eyes you are the one who is wrong until you convince them to the contrary. you will never get everyone to see it your way.....so you need the choice to play with people who do....and let them play with players who like it that way. its a win win....
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63131

  • Paul Mantz, Jr.
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ParrotHead wrote: Now, somebody put the stool back so I can get off the gigantic soapbox.

Thanks,
PH


Perfectly stated! I looked all over for a stool tall enough. All I could find was this old ladder.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63142

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Approaching enemy base or carrier with a bomb, if there's reds on it, over it, under it, come in with guns blazing, make your drop, then stick around awhile to give cover to the next guy with a bomb, then run for home to rearm, taking out any reds you see on the way...from behind!
You do not need to sit on a base in a tank during free for all, that's weakness. If I get shot down near a tank in free for all, I will tank up to go after the spawnkilling tank, when that's done I drive onto runway and stop to re- plane.
Next time you see me in a tank heading for a base in free for all please remember, I'm going after a spawn killer, thank you :)
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63152

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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63153

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doughens wrote: Bopes i really take offense to the angels on a pin refernce. Its disrespectful to those who have a deep hearted Faith in the one true God.


I'm sorry you feel that way Swop. Peace, my friend.

No offense was intended, nor was my post directed at you, or anyone, in particular.

But I know exactly where you stand on the SK issue. :) I respect your views. I am not offended by them. I just don't happen to share them.

My point about angels and pins was just to say that this debate could go on forever without ever changing anyone's opinion, like another poster said above.
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SPAWN KILLING: The Great Debate 6 years 8 months ago #63154

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A lot of bad things happen in wars. It's war after all and the best way to stay alive is to kill the other guy first. It's a good philosophy, it's worked for years. However, this is a game of war and if actions taken by a player, ruins the game for other players, then that action is wrong. The same goes in real life, it's really pretty simple.

Now, regarding spawn killing: I don't do it period. Not even on bomb runs. I always let them start shooting at me first. I'm not saying that's the way to go, that's just me.

I also don't complain about spawnkilling either, and never go after pilot spawnkillers but I'm ruthless to tank spawnkillers; and will persue them relentlessly, even if it means getting a ban.

Also, thanks Parrot Head, really enjoyed you post.
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