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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329969

  • zuperman
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Hi,

Let me explain how it was before the change and how it is now, and possible choices.

How it was until 2 days ago:
The problem is that you could get multiple kills on the same person but only 1 death show up as negative. For instance, you shoot an airplane down (1 kill), then the person jumps on parachute and you kill him (2 kills). On his side, he only showed up as 1 dead.

So you got 2 kills. The other guy got 1 dead. It looks awesome for both stats, hey you got 2 kills and the other person only 1 death, that's why everyone is so happy about the old system!


How it is now after I changed it:
You get 2 kills (as before), but the other person died twice (2 deaths). It's more realistic because you never got 2 kills to begin with, but if you do, the other person should die twice too.
It's also better because it allows for different people to get on the stats: one person can get the airplane and a different one get the tank. They both got a kill each.

Now, people is not happy because why you should die twice? (apparently there is no issue you could kill twice because it's positive on the stats :P



I think it's better now. It's more realistic.

New option?:
The third option, which is the most realistic and I could implement is: You don't get any kill or dead until you are officially killed or dead.

So... you bring down an airplane, he jumps on parachute (you got 0 kills, 0 deaths), then you kill him on parachute (1 kill, 1 death). It's the best way really.

BUT

It creates a problem that it doesn't motivate for different players to kill and it motivates to chase people down. Why? Because if you bring down an airplane, you are not getting a kill. Another person comes behind you and kills the parachute, he gets the kill. I see people getting mad over this.
Also, since you wouldn't get the kill unless fully killed, I would expect people to bring down the airplane and then chase the parachute none stop until it got it too.
It would mess up lot of games, imagine you are doing a bombing run, 3 people attack and destroy enemy airplane... they got 0 kills... would they go for the hangars and bomb or turn around and get kills?

In short, although this is the most realistic option, it can create lot of conflicts, that's why I went for 2 kills/2 deads option. It's more balanced.

Thoughts?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329972

  • pmoon1{WP}
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I guess it will make you think about wether it is worthwhile jumping, like if you were way up high, as it was you had no reason not to jump even if there was little chance of making it to the ground but now if your stats will suffer you will have to assess your chances.
I see your points and the only suggestion I have is that since there is more at stake now that you should improve the performance of the tank because it is a sitting duck most of the time and doesn't shoot as far as it used to, as it is now in elite I rarely opt to use it because it is so hard to get in range to effectively use it



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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329973

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Seems fair enough. I have no problem with it. It will change the optimum tactics for when to jump and when not to. Hard to see over impact on games until its been in force for a while

Another option, is kills and deaths only occur to planes and tanks, not chutes. It aways seemed a little un-chivalrous to shoot a parachutes, not in keeping with the era. Then the only advantage to killing a chute is to stop them tanking. Maybe remove shooting from the chute at the same time?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329976

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I dont really like the 2 kills/2 deaths set up, but i can live with it. No pun intended. That is just an adjustment on strategy. A player could wait until closer to ground before jumping. The tanks need to become more effective, as many games go on and on with little chance of either side winning.



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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329977

  • S. E. Dailey
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Option 2 makes sense. I disagree with the notion of option 3 being the most realistic because it only treats the pilot as a valuable asset. Both the plane and the pilot are valuable parts of the war machine.

If we're talking "realism", historically, pilots are credited with confirmed kills of planes, not the pilots of those planes.
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329981

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I don't ever recall the way it was on DF1 being an issue so I'm not sure why it is now.

I think that part of the game should have been left alone.
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329985

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So if you don't get a kill for shooting down the plane, what if the player chooses not to take the chute option? Would that then register a kill to whomever took down the plane?

Or

What if the shot down pilot takes the chute option but then autodestructs before getting offed. How would you handle that one? Same could be said if they made it to their tank. Everyone is now autodestructing to keep from having a kill registered.

Probably will be a day or two of coding to deal with that.

or, you could just leave it like it was in DF1. No one seemed be bothered with it. Everyone (well most) like a positive kdr. Ain't nothing like making your patrons feel better about themselves.
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329990

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Another Suggestion Zup:

Whoever shoot the plane get the kill and the other death and afterwards in chute/tank one will receive only points whether the paratrooper get shot or paratrooper shot plane/tank/soldier.

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Last edit: by [NLR] The Blue Fighter.

New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329993

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i like option 2 and wut sir blue said but both are up to zup also great job on elite and wut level will u have to be to fly the ww2 planes?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #329995

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I haven't played it yet but I like the idea of the new style. It will definitely have an effect on when I choose to get in a chute. As it was I would almost always go to chute because there was no reason not to...even if a red was right gunning for me.

How do crashes, chute crashes and autodestroy fit into this? Do you register a death?

It could be great if you could have an option to get in a tank without getting shot down. Maybe keep the present system but also make it so you could land first before you could switch to soldier or tank.

B)
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330002

  • [M] Lt. Dan in house
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Lol I always didnt chute because I thought it counted as another kill lol So all good with me .
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330004

  • [M] Lt. Dan in house
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Hey do we get hanger hits when we bomb carrier ? I don't think we do ?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330006

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I think you're CRAZY PANTS!

That being said, I'd rather leave it the way it is than go to option 3. Option 3 makes no sense at all. My problem is that I'm a masochist, and will ALWAYS go into my chute. Now it's more painful to do that... but I guess since I'm a masochist it's alright with me. :evil:


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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330013

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[M] Lt. Dan in house wrote: Hey do we get hanger hits when we bomb carrier ? I don't think we do ?


Nope dan

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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330023

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In my opinion the new scoring method will take some of the incentive to parachute away as some folks worry about their stats more than anything. The current, or old way I suppose, makes it very lucrative to get into your chute since there really is no downside.

I kinda liked the old way. Reason being the game is a fast paced shoot-em-up and not realistic anyway. Parts are realistic, aircraft performance and the like, but parts like the parachutes themselves are not realistic. I say keep it arcade style as much as possible. I think there is already enough strategy built in and available to players who wish to play that way. What I have found is games that are more realistic are also less fun to play.

Just my .02. I don't care about numbers anyway but can see the new scoring tally will impact the dynamics of the game because there are many folks who are numbers driven. Id rather my team mate worry less about his stats and more about accomplishing the mission and winning the game.








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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330026

  • zuperman
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I'm missing something here. How would this incentivize parachuting if the way it was before you got no death count (good for you and people parachuted) and now you get a death count (bad for you)?

Wouldn't it be exactly the opposite? People will prefer NOT to parachute?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330027

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I see your point Zup, yea i believe it will get ppl to stop chuting so much but cool with me lol. Unless youre like me and dont care about the kill/death ratio and just looking for the W hehe

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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330028

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I think your right Zuperman.
Players will only chute if they think they can get down without being shot, and if tanking is in a useful position.

The more I think about it, the more I think no killing either way when in chutes is a better option. Then the upside to chuting is to get a tank, the downside is you are stuck in the air out of the game for a while.

All the options would work ok, numbers of k/d are just relative numbers anyway. The question is which would cause the fairest tactics.

A side issue, as someone else mentioned, some players autodestruct when you've got 3 shots into them and the 4th is imminent, to avoid a death. I don't think that's a fair tactic. Maybe you could also make autodestruct count as a death (but not a kill maybe?) It would also discourage autodestructing in order to get back to base quickly to defend or reload.

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Last edit: by Gannet.

New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330032

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zuperman wrote: I'm missing something here. How would this incentivize parachuting if the way it was before you got no death count (good for you and people parachuted) and now you get a death count (bad for you)?

Wouldn't it be exactly the opposite? People will prefer NOT to parachute?


I either didn't explain it properly or you misunderstood. The new way you have already implemented (I hadn't noticed because I rarely chute) is bad for you if you chute from a purely numbers standpoint. Bad for you may equate to not chuting for personal reasons instead of chuting for a possible tactical advantage or the good of the team.

I would rather players on my team think more about the objective at hand than their personal numbers, so what I would rather see is a return to the way it had been instead of what you have already changed, if that makes sense.

Sorry if I was not more clear.

You requested thoughts and feedback. Those are my thoughts on the matter. Probably not the most popular idea but that has never been a consideration of mine when asked for honest feedback.








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Last edit: by Viper10{WP}.

New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330033

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Still don't have my damn Camaro


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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330035

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Hummm…still not decided what option is the best, I believe option 3 could work is the bombing of hangars or ship are worth a bigger amount of point, this was people would concentrate more on going for the target instead of going for the pilot. Other option is that pilot death is worth only half a point.



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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330036

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I like the current system in DF1. Historically, a kill is for a plane. It would be cool if plane and tank kills were different tallies, and leave the chutes out of the mix.




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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330037

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I agree, parachutes shouldn't count as a kill. To be fair though, if shooting chutes don't count then I wouldn't think that shooting planes from chute should either.

A more realistic option would be to disarm the man under the chute. I don't recall hearing many tales of planes being shot down by a descending parachuter. Losing a few points for shooting the unarmed floater might be good too, as it tends to be frowned upon by most.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists

Also a small hitbox for the pilot would be cool. If hit while shooting the plane down it would disable the option to jump and you must respawn.
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Last edit: by [NLR]Jacob10000.

New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330038

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My vote would be for 1 pilot death per spawn... and ya gotta kill the pilot to get a kill recorded



if/when shot down;


choose not to chute and go down with the plane = 1 death

chute and get shot = 1 death

auto destruct (any reason) = 1 death

shoot down a plane;

and they chute, no kill (unless we can get a direct hit on the pilot!!)

shoot down a plane and and they don't chute = 1 kill

shoot down a chute = 1 kill

shots landed and they auto destruct = 1 kill


Thanks Zup for allowing us to weigh in on this topic

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Last edit: by nebular.

New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330039

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But in real aerial warfare they count how many planes you down not how many pilots you kill.
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330040

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good point!!
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330046

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Ok, so after going through all messages, what about this:

I change it so only airplanes and tanks count towards kills/deads. You still get points for everything but for kills/deads ratio killing the soldier doesn't count. I may make a exception on a direct soldier vs soldier, but that would take a few days to implement.

Sounds better that way?
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330050

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Return back to the current system that was in DF1.
Allowing the option to chute and tank without penalty is an incentive to using those features. Pure gravy.
Allows the game play to move forward and adds a bit of dynamic. Without it, players might be more inclined to just respawn and get back in the plane.

When the pilots were exiting at 90 degrees, players opted to not chute. Chutes became cannon fodder for the planes as there was no realistic expectation of getting a kill from the chute.
Right now, chute kills are down compared to those from df1 due to bullet drop, range and hit zones. This is a good thing. Makes you think a bit more before chuting.
The same can be said for tanks, players are less inclined to tank right now. The distance to get in range without cover seems a bit far.

While it does make sense to to count all kills and deaths for more realistic stats. Some stat chasers might be a bit disappointed with their ingame ratios going dropping to 2:1, 1:1 and below with the change from df1 to elite.
Not all things need to be accurate and realistic to ww1 flight simulation.
Let's get throught the migration and performance issues first. Maybe introduce the new kill count in team/squad wars.
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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330055

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I would have to say the old way. Option 3 seems closer to the old way but the problem is if the player doesnt jump or say its a noob who hasnt bought a chute then it it doesnt count as as a kill for the shooter.

My thoughts are if you shoot a plane down, 1 kill for the shooter, then they jump and you shoot the parachuter then a second kill for the shooter, or if the man lands safely and then is later killed in his tank, still a second kill for shooter or kill for whoever shoots him.

However, as the on being shot down. Your plane gets shot down=1 kill, but if he decides to jump or gets killed in a tank it shouldnt count as a kill because the death was already counted and realistically people dont die twice.

Option 3 wouldnt work just because some noobs dont have a chute and some players dont jump some the shooter wouldnt get credit, but the player being shot would have a death on their record.

I feel the old way is the best way to offset this by giving the player being shot a death upon having his plane shot down and that be it. Otherwise dying multuple times in one run isnt very realistic.

I think the original way you had it set up was best and makes the most sense and is closest to the most realistic optiin 3 where the shooter still gets credit for the kill while the pilot shot doesnt die an unrealistic 2 times in one run.

I know this isnt every other game but think of it as every other game. When you die once you reset to the starting point.

I think the old way is the fairest

Other wise if a plane is shot by a tank, the plane should account for 2 kills for the tanker and the pilot should get two deaths being he not only was shot but the ability to jump was also taken from him.

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New kill ratio, looking for feedback 8 years 2 months ago #330058

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Shooting a plane with a tank kinda raises a point and maybe a suggestion. Since its more difficult to hit a plane w a tank round why not make shooting a plane down w a tank worth more points than shooting a plane down w another plane.

Mox the points up a little. A hanger is tougher to bomb than the aircraft carrier being the carrier moves and if you dont make it and get shot down in certain locations around the lakes, it can be quite easy to hit the carrier. So why not make hangers worth more than bombs to a carrier.

Then you could also look at it and say that its much harder to make it all the way to the carrier or hangers in a plane when other players are present, so the bombing in a plane being tougher than a tank could be worth more than bombing w a tank.

Bomb hanger or carrier w plane are equal amounts and most pnts for bombing.

Bomb hanger w tank second most pnts for bombing.

Bomb carrier w tank 3 rd most pnts for bombing.


I know this was off topic but talking about all this raises a question in my mind. May sound stupid but would add layers of depth to the pnt systems .

Sorry i went off topic.

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