I've seen posts on the forum, and comments in chat indicating that people should basically be able to say and post what they want due to freedom of speech.

However, there are things to consider about freedom of speech in the world, here in the USA, and in websites/games. There are always limits to what is considered free speech, just like you can't actually make threats because that is actually a crime, especially if towards a politician like the President. You are not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater, or say anything about bombs or hijacking at an airport. In Thailand if you say anything about the King you will be arrested.

This is a global game, so there are different ideas and limits when it comes to freedom of speech, as well as what is acceptable in the different cultures, and most here work to be respectful of everyone, then there are those that seem to just not care.

You do have a right to go into a business and say what you want, but that business owner also has the right to have you leave, and not service you. This forum and game is such a business, thus Zup has the right to show you the door too if you want to promote your free speech that violates the TOS that you've agreed to.

When everyone started playing this game, and signed onto the forum, there were the Terms of Service (TOS) that we all must abide by. This is the same for any such website or game. I've seen a basic TOS of "nice to be nice", all the way to spelling everything out to satisfy the lawyers. Zup/echoboom has been a bit relaxed on enforcing the TOS on occasion, but they are still here in effect, and since we all have agreed to be here, we all agree to the TOS. Thus if your post gets deleted, don't blame the mod or Zup, look to yourself for violating the TOS, even if you're just demonstrating your rights of free speech, because they are also demonstrating their rights to enforce the TOS you've agreed to.

Here are some notable aspects of the TOS (Zup uses TOU ~ terms of use)
full list of the TOS you've agreed to ---> Click here

• We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. By registering or posting on the forum you are agreeing to these rules or policies.
• By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
• The owners of Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason.
• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, profanity (or attempts to bypass profanity filters), insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.
• Please refrain from posting meaningless topics, one word (or short) non-sense posts, or the equivalent.
• We also do not allow posts or links to sites that are sexual in nature or violate community standards. We also do not allow posts or links to competing products. The moderators shall be the sole arbitrator of what does and what does not violate community standards.
• Discussion of illegal activities such as software and music piracy and other intellectual property violations are not allowed. [this should include illegal drugs, yes pot/weed is still illegal in most of the world]
• You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.
• Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.
• The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realize that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. This policy applies to member profile information as well.
• You have the ability, as you register, to choose your username. We advise that you keep the name appropriate.
• After you register and login to this forum, you will be able to fill out a detailed profile. It is your responsibility to present clean and accurate information. Any information the forum owner or staff determines to be inaccurate or vulgar in nature will be removed, with or without prior notice. Appropriate sanctions may be applicable.
• Please note that with each post, your IP address is recorded, in the event that you need to be banned from this forum or your ISP contacted. This will only happen in the event of a major violation of this agreement.
• We are in compliance with the requirements of COPPA (Childrens Online Privacy Protection Act), we do not collect any information from anyone under 13 years of age. Our website, products and services are all directed to people who are at least 13 years old or older.

And lastly, always remember what Kermit says:

Hey Eagle,

Good post. Some won't get it and scream "get off my lawn!". Which cracks me up, as it's Zup's lawn.

I never read the TOS as I just play the game. But try messing over and over with "violation of any International or United States Federal law and COPPA". When it involves kids and you post inappropriate stuff at the threat of someone's business---good luck.

The good thing is, the vast majority support the game and have fun. I think many have proven that over and over.


Cheers!

I do not want DF to lose its focus and forum threads. It is a game about flying. Lets get in the skies and have fun again

{GI} E*A*G*L*E wrote: I've seen posts on the forum, and comments in chat indicating that people should basically be able to say and post what they want due to freedom of speech.

However, there are things to consider about freedom of speech in the world, here in the USA, and in websites/games. There are always limits to what is considered free speech, just like you can't actually make threats because that is actually a crime, especially if towards a politician like the President. You are not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater, or say anything about bombs or hijacking at an airport. In Thailand if you say anything about the King you will be arrested.

This is a global game, so there are different ideas and limits when it comes to freedom of speech, as well as what is acceptable in the different cultures, and most here work to be respectful of everyone, then there are those that seem to just not care.

You do have a right to go into a business and say what you want, but that business owner also has the right to have you leave, and not service you. This forum and game is such a business, thus Zup has the right to show you the door too if you want to promote your free speech that violates the TOS that you've agreed to.

When everyone started playing this game, and signed onto the forum, there were the Terms of Service (TOS) that we all must abide by. This is the same for any such website or game. I've seen a basic TOS of "nice to be nice", all the way to spelling everything out to satisfy the lawyers. Zup/echoboom has been a bit relaxed on enforcing the TOS on occasion, but they are still here in effect, and since we all have agreed to be here, we all agree to the TOS. Thus if your post gets deleted, don't blame the mod or Zup, look to yourself for violating the TOS, even if you're just demonstrating your rights of free speech, because they are also demonstrating their rights to enforce the TOS you've agreed to.

Here are some notable aspects of the TOS (Zup uses TOU ~ terms of use)
full list of the TOS you've agreed to ---> Click here

• We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. By registering or posting on the forum you are agreeing to these rules or policies.
• By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
• The owners of Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason.
• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, profanity (or attempts to bypass profanity filters), insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.
• Please refrain from posting meaningless topics, one word (or short) non-sense posts, or the equivalent.
• We also do not allow posts or links to sites that are sexual in nature or violate community standards. We also do not allow posts or links to competing products. The moderators shall be the sole arbitrator of what does and what does not violate community standards.
• Discussion of illegal activities such as software and music piracy and other intellectual property violations are not allowed. [this should include illegal drugs, yes pot/weed is still illegal in most of the world]
• You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law.
• Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum.
• The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, please realize that they may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. This policy applies to member profile information as well.
• You have the ability, as you register, to choose your username. We advise that you keep the name appropriate.
• After you register and login to this forum, you will be able to fill out a detailed profile. It is your responsibility to present clean and accurate information. Any information the forum owner or staff determines to be inaccurate or vulgar in nature will be removed, with or without prior notice. Appropriate sanctions may be applicable.
• Please note that with each post, your IP address is recorded, in the event that you need to be banned from this forum or your ISP contacted. This will only happen in the event of a major violation of this agreement.
• We are in compliance with the requirements of COPPA (Childrens Online Privacy Protection Act), we do not collect any information from anyone under 13 years of age. Our website, products and services are all directed to people who are at least 13 years old or older.

And lastly, always remember what Kermit says:

Hi Eagle, interesting post which I'm sure will clear up any misunderstandings of what we can and cannot say or do. But can I just point out that you have placed a meme of kermit advertising Liptons tea. So does that mean that you have broken the advertising rules. ?

Clear as mud. Everyone clearly agrees on what constitutes objectionable. I think the issue is more or less what Fallen has tried to convey. I don't like what you post. It is not necessarily clear that it is inappropriate. For example, a picture of a woman in a bikini. That certainly qualifies as pg13. I complain to Zup. I might even get a friend to complain also. Zup forces the other player to remove the material. Have I enforced the community standard or my standard?

I wonder how much time and resources have been spent trying to define what is "socially acceptable". It's like trying to figure out how much cake is "enough".

pro·fane
prəˈfān/
adjective
1. relating or devoted to that which is not sacred or biblical; secular rather than religious.
2. (of a person or their behavior) not respectful of orthodox religious practice; irreverent.


ob·scene
əbˈsēn/
adjective
(of the portrayal or description of sexual matters) offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency.


vul·gar
ˈvəlɡər/
adjective
lacking sophistication or good taste; unrefined.



"Adult material"? Would that be "pornography":

XXX is used to designate pornographic material in the U.S. and other regions around the world.
Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal.


Regardless of anyone's point of view, definitive definitions of the terms above are subjective. As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."


Well, Zup saved himself the trouble of defining it all. From the TOU:
"The moderators shall be the sole arbitrator of what does and what does not violate community standards."
(Written before there were individual squad section mods.)


Clear as mud?



I remember a moderator, General Jack (gone now ) once removed this video. I'm guessing some threads are going to disappear pretty soon... Hopefully the forum will still be here.

McFate Wrote:

I'm guessing some threads are going to disappear pretty soon... Hopefully the forum will still be here.

The thread disappearing would be unfortunate.

I was considering addressing this very issue on the WP thread but you beat me to the punch Eagle.

I think it is relevant that the forum and game are zups property, therefore "freedom of speech" may not have the same meaning to him than it does to folks in the USA. Regardless, none of the users of the game have a constitutional right to free speech here as many feel they do, at least in my opinion.

Those of us who have traveled abroad should be keenly aware that things that are acceptable or even legal in one country are not acceptable or even legal in others. For example, one would be foolish to smoke weed in say, Turkey, because they have their medical marijuana card issued by California, and not expect to get into trouble.

My friends and I had a term we used tongue-in-cheek: "Ugly Americans"... the folks that go to other countries and expect the other country to conform to their laws and hold the same values of acceptable behavior. They feel they can do/say/act this way in the States, so they have a right to do/say/act this way wherever they are. I'm sorry, but that is just plain ignorant. (Thus the term "Ugly Americans")

I suspect the issue with forum posts, what is and is not appropriate, stems from what Tx touched upon... who decides what is and is not appropriate? Obviously the poster felt his/her post appropriate or they wouldn't have posted it in the first place, and a moderator did not. Some may feel "freedom of speech" applies to their posts regardless of content, however I would always argue it does not. The forum isn't the USA, Great Britain, Germany, India, Spain, etc. and not everyone shares the same perception of what is acceptable and what isn't due to the many different cultures and countries represented here in this forum.

As a moderator of WP thread, I have to consider all the different points of view while I peruse the various posts for content. If I was to only consider my personal values, and not take into account the many different possible values, my job would be a ton easier but I would be much less effective as a moderator, at least as I see it. I cannot and will not just put the "freedom of speech" label on everything and leave it at that. Not everyone will agree with this method and I am bound to step on some toes from time to time but bear in mind it isn't my personal values I am tasked to enforce (If enforce is indeed the word that fits)

Bottom line, and Eagle summed this up perfectly, is that if a post gets removed the poster should not blame the mod, but look to themselves as the reason. There is a saying in law enforcement: "We don't put them in the back of our car, they put themselves there". This saying can easily be applied here; The mod didn't remove your post, your post was at fault.

I would love to see bikini clad girls, read the occasional dirty joke, etc. and always enjoy reading "flame" threads on other forums I frequent..... the thread where anything goes so folks can get themselves into a good internet argument without censor. That kind of thread is really entertaining. But my definition of what is appropriate isn't shared by all, and I agreed to the TOS and therefore have to stick by it, regardless on how loosely or strictly it has been interpreted in the past.

I would like to say that I make this post not out of taking one side or the other of the recent events here on the forum with posts being deleted and folks being banned temporarily. I steer clear of judging others' actions and imposing my beliefs of right and wrong behavior on others. I made this post to clarify my personal approach to how I moderate the WP thread, and the various things I consider when I scrub the posts for content. Being a moderator can be difficult and very unpopular at times. Sometimes I don't even agree with what I have to do, but I have to do it regardless of my personal opinion. Shoot, sometimes it is downright unpleasant and sometimes I have to go against what my personal opinions are. The nature of the beast. Thread moderation and the occasional post deletion isn't done with malicious intent, nor is it usually focused on one individual. While I cannot speak for other mods, in my case it is done from the standpoint of preserving the forum so that it doesn't get removed by the game creator, and no other reason.

Whew! I am long winded. Glad I posted this here and didn't clutter up WP thread.

Viper10{WP} wrote: I was considering addressing this very issue on the WP thread but you beat me to the punch Eagle.

I think it is relevant that the forum and game are zups property, therefore "freedom of speech" may not have the same meaning to him than it does to folks in the USA. Regardless, none of the users of the game have a constitutional right to free speech here as many feel they do, at least in my opinion.

Those of us who have traveled abroad should be keenly aware that things that are acceptable or even legal in one country are not acceptable or even legal in others. For example, one would be foolish to smoke weed in say, Turkey, because they have their medical marijuana card issued by California, and not expect to get into trouble.

My friends and I had a term we used tongue-in-cheek: "Ugly Americans"... the folks that go to other countries and expect the other country to conform to their laws and hold the same values of acceptable behavior. They feel they can do/say/act this way in the States, so they have a right to do/say/act this way wherever they are. I'm sorry, but that is just plain ignorant. (Thus the term "Ugly Americans")

I suspect the issue with forum posts, what is and is not appropriate, stems from what Tx touched upon... who decides what is and is not appropriate? Obviously the poster felt his/her post appropriate or they wouldn't have posted it in the first place, and a moderator did not. Some may feel "freedom of speech" applies to their posts regardless of content, however I would always argue it does not. The forum isn't the USA, Great Britain, Germany, India, Spain, etc. and not everyone shares the same perception of what is acceptable and what isn't due to the many different cultures and countries represented here in this forum.

As a moderator of WP thread, I have to consider all the different points of view while I peruse the various posts for content. If I was to only consider my personal values, and not take into account the many different possible values, my job would be a ton easier but I would be much less effective as a moderator, at least as I see it. I cannot and will not just put the "freedom of speech" label on everything and leave it at that. Not everyone will agree with this method and I am bound to step on some toes from time to time but bear in mind it isn't my personal values I am tasked to enforce (If enforce is indeed the word that fits)

Bottom line, and Eagle summed this up perfectly, is that if a post gets removed the poster should not blame the mod, but look to themselves as the reason. There is a saying in law enforcement: "We don't put them in the back of our car, they put themselves there". This saying can easily be applied here; The mod didn't remove your post, your post was at fault.

I would love to see bikini clad girls, read the occasional dirty joke, etc. and always enjoy reading "flame" threads on other forums I frequent..... the thread where anything goes so folks can get themselves into a good internet argument without censor. That kind of thread is really entertaining. But my definition of what is appropriate isn't shared by all, and I agreed to the TOS and therefore have to stick by it, regardless on how loosely or strictly it has been interpreted in the past.

I would like to say that I make this post not out of taking one side or the other of the recent events here on the forum with posts being deleted and folks being banned temporarily. I steer clear of judging others' actions and imposing my beliefs of right and wrong behavior on others. I made this post to clarify my personal approach to how I moderate the WP thread, and the various things I consider when I scrub the posts for content. Being a moderator can be difficult and very unpopular at times. Sometimes I don't even agree with what I have to do, but I have to do it regardless of my personal opinion. Shoot, sometimes it is downright unpleasant and sometimes I have to go against what my personal opinions are. The nature of the beast. Thread moderation and the occasional post deletion isn't done with malicious intent, nor is it usually focused on one individual. While I cannot speak for other mods, in my case it is done from the standpoint of preserving the forum so that it doesn't get removed by the game creator, and no other reason.

Whew! I am long winded. Glad I posted this here and didn't clutter up WP thread.

A very well done post Viper.

.......more tea, anyone?

Rudolf Rednose wrote: .......more tea, anyone?

Shhh!...tea is a banned word in Anglo American relationships.
We can't have the dogfighters from Boston getting agitated!

Darn colonials!

"Lord Taranaga askes if it is true, Anjin San, that the Dutch who's ship you pilot rebel against their lord, the king of Spain."

"Only if we win."

Wakalimas

I don't see the point of arguing this until infinity. I think the rules are pretty clear.
If when posting you have to ask yourself if this is "ok" or not to post, then you just answered your question: no.
And as you know we are pretty easy going on posts, sometimes way too much, but when I go into the forum or WC and I see constant talk about "what we are gonna do each other tonight", "when you arrive home I'll...", "what's your age and are you single", etc... well, it's clearly sexually-oriented under the point:
"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."

And the list goes on. You can see I'm pretty relaxed about it if you compared it to any other forum/game, and I usually give warnings but when I decide to mute these people, they complain and ask for forgiveness, go around asking friends to contact me to try to give them another chance and... they come back under a different account and repeat the same thing and joke about what "zup will do" or where is the limit.

Well, at that point you risk that zup had a bad day and instead of a temp mute, removes your account, ip, block your provider and goes on with his life because honestly, it's the easiest thing to do instead of having to discuss the ins and outs of a policy that it's pretty obvious.

In short, for inappropriate content, the same way it's hard to define porn, I know it when I see it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it