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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324587

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I realize this topic has been discussed to death in DF, but I have noticed in elite with a PC I have no chance in a turn fight game vs. anyone using tilt platforms. The pc aircraft is still unstable without bombs and cannot match the tilt guys without them, likely due to the slow response time from the pc controls. I noticed the aircraft still has the most dynamic flight regime as full up elevator, but even using that and gravity and momentum anyone with tilt and an equal aircraft has me in a few turns without any problems. Maybe its me, but what I have experienced is my aircraft has a distinct disadvantage both head on and turn fighting in missions which don't require a bomb.

Since I can only speak for myself and cannot see what everyone else has experienced I would like ask folks who have experience with both types of controls to weigh in.

Ironically the games I am best at in regular df I have no desire to even play in elite and will be sticking to bombing games until I get it sorted out... either back to additional training or more research on aerodynamics and how to regain the advantage in aerial combat.

I'm not looking to start anything other than a mature discussion about others experience with this issue and whether or not it even is an issue or am I just lacking skills. (yes I fully expect folks to chime in with smart-alec answers and that doesn't bother me at all)








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324589

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yes i played frits a few times in elite and i could match him he plays on joystick on pc .i found him very hard to match in regular df seems zup has evened out the pc-tilt difference in elite .

Viper10{WP} wrote: I realize this topic has been discussed to death in DF, but I have noticed in elite with a PC I have no chance in a turn fight game vs. anyone using tilt platforms. The pc aircraft is still unstable without bombs and cannot match the tilt guys without them, likely due to the slow response time from the pc controls. I noticed the aircraft still has the most dynamic flight regime as full up elevator, but even using that and gravity and momentum anyone with tilt and an equal aircraft has me in a few turns without any problems. Maybe its me, but what I have experienced is my aircraft has a distinct disadvantage both head on and turn fighting in missions which don't require a bomb.

Since I can only speak for myself and cannot see what everyone else has experienced I would like ask folks who have experience with both types of controls to weigh in.

Ironically the games I am best at in regular df I have no desire to even play in elite and will be sticking to bombing games until I get it sorted out... either back to additional training or more research on aerodynamics and how to regain the advantage in aerial combat.

I'm not looking to start anything other than a mature discussion about others experience with this issue and whether or not it even is an issue or am I just lacking skills. (yes I fully expect folks to chime in with smart-alec answers and that doesn't bother me at all)

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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324591

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I wasn't speaking about any individual player, just the disparity between tilt and pc in a bomb-less elite game. I have faced fritz in elite and we are an even match.

So that's one vote for "lack of skill".








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324595

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I believe you dont have a sensitivity bar on pc zup preset it if I understood right

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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324600

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I agree with Viper. With out being able to adjust sensitivity bar my plane is incredibly sluggish. But I am used to getting shot down so i will try my best lol

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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324602

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Viper you are not alone...

a quick back story... then some findings...

the old laptop finally died so I bought a Win8 based tablet, found DogFight and of course fell in love...
discovered I couldn't keep up in any kind of turnfight due to physical range of motion limitations with both me and the device... and I really needed a real computer...in an effort to improve my game I bought a discount desktop PC and an xbox controller... (that was like starting all over btw)

On Elite;

as we now all know the standard PC set up does not provide the sensitivity bar... the tablet does... I assume so will any touchscreen laptop...

per a little testing with the two PC devices this is what I have found...

Logged onto Elite via the PC desktop...got into a solo CTF mission...

flew out a ways to mid field, straight and level, line up with the flag and did a hard 360 turn... 5-6 seconds average to complete... repeated several times to be sure

Logged onto Elite Via the Win tablet and repeated the experiment...

about 3-4 seconds to complete...repeated several times to be sure

with the tablet I am on a par with Kindles and Androids... On the desktop... toast

In later turnfights while on the tablet it was announced to me on game chat about how nice it was to be able to finally be able to out turn a PC player...

My opinion is that Elite has improved the performance of tilt devices to the point of now being at least equal to a PC in turning ability so the 'no sensitivity bar' handicap is really not necessary...

the detuned PC is now easier to line up those long shots but a drone if ya miss... who knows, the detuning may actually prove to be an advantage in the soon to be released hotrod fighter airplanes
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324649

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I've played almost exclusively on PC since I started. I've heard time and time again about the great, unfair advantage that my PC has over everybody else. The only people I ever hear about it from are typically some Level 25 or higher in a tricked out tier 5-7 plane that is offended that my lowly tier 2 isn't an easy enough kill.

Personally, I can't aim worth anything at max sensitivity, so I've already tuned down my PC. In my opinion, for me, if there every was a PC advantage, I've negated most if not all of it. While it might be easier to lock it into a flat hard right or hard left turn, the arrow keys on a keyboard suck to aim with.

When I moved up to Elite, I also moved up to using a joystick. To me, I think all the planes feel sluggish compared to DF1. I also think the joystick dead zone is kind of excessive in Elite. Because of that, I think I'm muscling it too much, and making aiming a nightmare. I'm missing having that slider because I want to try to crank that back down a bit.

Being a good turn fighter doesn't matter, if you can't be effective enough with your head on game to get in close.
...
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324664

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Nebular wrote: Viper you are not alone...

a quick back story... then some findings...

the old laptop finally died so I bought a Win8 based tablet, found DogFight and of course fell in love...
discovered I couldn't keep up in any kind of turnfight due to physical range of motion limitations with both me and the device... and I really needed a real computer...in an effort to improve my game I bought a discount desktop PC and an xbox controller... (that was like starting all over btw)

On Elite;

as we now all know the standard PC set up does not provide the sensitivity bar... the tablet does... I assume so will any touchscreen laptop...

per a little testing with the two PC devices this is what I have found...

Logged onto Elite via the PC desktop...got into a solo CTF mission...

flew out a ways to mid field, straight and level, line up with the flag and did a hard 360 turn... 5-6 seconds average to complete... repeated several times to be sure

Logged onto Elite Via the Win tablet and repeated the experiment...

about 3-4 seconds to complete...repeated several times to be sure

with the tablet I am on a par with Kindles and Androids... On the desktop... toast

In later turnfights while on the tablet it was announced to me on game chat about how nice it was to be able to finally be able to out turn a PC player...

My opinion is that Elite has improved the performance of tilt devices to the point of now being at least equal to a PC in turning ability so the 'no sensitivity bar' handicap is really not necessary...


the detuned PC is now easier to line up those long shots but a drone if ya miss... who knows, the detuning may actually prove to be an advantage in the soon to be released hotrod fighter airplanes



Fascinating. I cannot wait to time a 360 and compare results to yours








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324708

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Well, Zup has said that the different platforms will eventually be separated. While unfortunate, it may be necessary to make the game "fair". Remember that we have yet to see console players joining... I wonder how that will be.

The biggest draw back to players will be separating friends. I'm a tilt player and will remain as such. I fondly remember the game before PCs were introduced because of the level playing field...it was very rare for anyone to have an advantage over anyone unless it was through skill, knowledge or use of maneuvers. There were very few caveats used when naming who the "best" were.

In think it will be very good for the quality of the game experience when they are separated...it may increase the number of players who join and decide to stay. At some point the only way people would know there are two separate versions would be the forum.

Will it make sense for Zup to maintain 3 different versions? Elite PC/console, Elite mobile, and original Dogfight? Hmmmmm....

Growing pains. :S
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324723

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[NLR] McFate wrote: Well, Zup has said that the different platforms will eventually be separated. While unfortunate, it may be necessary to make the game "fair". Remember that we have yet to see console players joining... I wonder how that will be.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Zup also say that the type of device you're playing on shouldn't make a difference in game performance? :huh:
...
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324727

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Has anybody have had issues with logging on to df 1 just locks up on logging in screen or says can't find account. This started after opening df it played a video of improvement pic n traffic's creating Shadow n other thing
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324731

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S. E. Dailey wrote:

[NLR] McFate wrote: Well, Zup has said that the different platforms will eventually be separated. While unfortunate, it may be necessary to make the game "fair". Remember that we have yet to see console players joining... I wonder how that will be.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Zup also say that the type of device you're playing on shouldn't make a difference in game performance? :huh:


I would rather just see all the different hardware choices have the same performance, and by Nebulars post I sense there is a disparity at this time. Regardless of what platform you play on your turn radius should be equal given the equality of the aircraft. I am no programmer but I would say that in order to make the game as fair as possible speed, turn radius, and input speed (Like reaction time) should be equal. Those three things would put all the platforms on equal footing. I would imagine the most difficult of the three would be trying to ensure the various tilt platforms had uniform response to user input, given the differences in tilt devices. I imagine (from a layman's perspective) the consistency among pc interface would be easier to make the response to input consistent.

I don't think I have ever voiced my opinion about the separation of pc and non-pc idea. I am not really a supporter because, again my opinion, that is giving the minority of players the say-so in things. I really feel the vast majority of folks are against the separation but there is a very vocal group that is against pc players and their hardware based ability. Those are the folks who are calling for the platform separation.

I just got up and haven't had time to check Nebulars findings yet. I cannot compare my pc to a tablet as I don't own a tablet, but I can verify the turn radius speed and see what happens. Perhaps after a second cup of coffee I will feel like opening elite. Right now I still have to get rid of last nights cobwebs.....








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324736

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I don't remember where to find the discussion about the differences, I may look for it later if no one else brings it up, but the main difference comes in processor speed. According to what I remember reading PCs and Consoles are superior to mobile devices because they are able to process info faster... be it response to turning, reaction to making or taking hits, etc.
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324739

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As for the decision to segregate the servers:

Dogfight needs more than just the existing community. While it would be nice to keep everyone happy it seems far more important to make improvements that will make the game play better. The game has not been a big financial success. The community is not as big as it may seem. I posted the following on another thread; it may give you an idea of how small of a group we really are.

I just hope the game will become a better success. Making it more equitable may help. One thing for certain, the existing model was not doing very well. Sure those of us who stay love it, but how many people really stay and play? Since his death more than 2 years ago , DUCKWING1 (level 22) has only fallen to world rank 1068. Level 22 is only around a quarter of the points required for MORAF. I don't know what the highest level he ever reached was but only something like 600-700 accounts have stuck around long enough to pass him.

I think Zup would do better making the game more "fair" especially to new players rather than to cater to those of us already here. That's a big part of why I suggest making servers dedicated to lower level planes and others for those who really want to fight tooth and nail. The difference between platforms is a real factor, so much so that many people will only play the missions that work best for their device.

Separating the devices will break up friends but not as bad as if the game failed altogether.
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324744

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Yes noob server's like a farm baseball league
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324746

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[NLR] McFate wrote: I don't remember where to find the discussion about the differences, I may look for it later if no one else brings it up, but the main difference comes in processor speed. According to what I remember reading PCs and Consoles are superior to mobile devices because they are able to process info faster... be it response to turning, reaction to making or taking hits, etc.



just for reference...

My tab processor speed is rated 1.3G...

PC processor rated at greater than 2.2G...

the tab turns about twice as fast...

if anybody wants to test the differences I will be glad to meet in Elite on either device... then switch and come back on the other... say the time here or on PM...
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324747

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Nebular wrote:

[NLR] McFate wrote: I don't remember where to find the discussion about the differences, I may look for it later if no one else brings it up, but the main difference comes in processor speed. According to what I remember reading PCs and Consoles are superior to mobile devices because they are able to process info faster... be it response to turning, reaction to making or taking hits, etc.



just for reference...

My tab processor speed is rated 1.3G...

PC processor rated at greater than 2.2G...

the tab turns about twice as fast...

if anybody wants to test the differences I will be glad to meet in Elite on either device... then switch and come back on the other... say the time here or on PM...


That is with the currently "handicapped" PC performance in Elite, right?

What happens if you do the same test in original Dogfight?
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324749

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Neb your data suggests processor speed isn't what causes one device to be faster in game play than another.

Fate your conclusions are drawn from suppositions. What I think we can all agree on is we would like to see the game succeed rather than fail. The fact that zup has stuck with it for, what? 4 years now? speaks about his desire to keep the game from failing in spite of the low or non-existent profits. Based on personal experience people attract other people and the more people are in attendance, the more want to be in attendance. That being said my conclusion is division of the various devices will create smaller groups of people and are (in my opinion) less likely to draw folks than a larger, united group would draw. Like you Fate, this is purely supposition based on my experience and has no hard data to support it.

But now we are off track, eh?








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324751

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[NLR] McFate wrote: [

That is with the currently "handicapped" PC performance in Elite, right?

What happens if you do the same test in original Dogfight?


This is a discussion about the elite hardware. While it would be interesting to check the lagacy I would hope we can stay on topic. Beta testing feedback is crucial for successful development of any product so I would hope our input reference elite is going to be helpful in the long run.

I am sure if the answer from a programming standpoint is that there is no feasible way to make all the platforms function equally then division is the best way to achieve a "fair" game for all. My gut tells me this proposed division will not impact the overall subscription rate in a positive way, but I have been known to be wrong before. Remember that one time? :P








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324752

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[NLR] McFate wrote:
That is with the currently "handicapped" PC performance in Elite, right?

What happens if you do the same test in original Dogfight?



I haven't done the actual time test in DF as there didn't seem to be any disparity...

suspect that they are the about same with the desktop being a bit snappier...

will glad to give it a whirl a little later tho
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324753

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Nebular wrote:

[NLR] McFate wrote:
That is with the currently "handicapped" PC performance in Elite, right?

What happens if you do the same test in original Dogfight?



I haven't done the actual time test in DF as there didn't seem to be any disparity...

suspect that they are the about same with the desktop being a bit snappier...

will glad to give it a whirl a little later tho;)


My observations were the pc snappy response was the main advantage. I matched many a tilt player evenly within the tactical egg and even had a few tilt guys perform what equated to an oval, with the smaller radius turn at the maximum point of momentum, which was extremely hard for my pc to counter. Not many could do it, but the ones who could were superior turn fighters. I crashed into the hard deck attempting to follow those players with my constant pc turn radius... resulting in an "oof" or "dang altimeter" comment from me.








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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324761

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I'm not trying to derail the hardware discussion here, just saying that the slower turn rate for PC looks like an intentional (temporary?) programming issue. I see lots of the same names on the thread that this quote came from... did anyone ever see a response from Zup after this?


[NLR] The Blue Fighter wrote:

zuperman wrote: Hi everyone,

As you know I've been working non-stop on Dogfight Elite. The beta 1, no surprise, had a bunch of errors that I've been correcting. So far I've submitted the game to Windows 8.1, Windows Phone, Google and Android TV, Amazon and Amazon TV (waiting to go public) and Apple (waiting to go public).

As I explained, this first stage was to make sure things were solid before moving on with the new stuff. Nevertheless you can see things already are different from Dogfight. Here a list:

- Windows do not have a sensitivity choice. I remove it during this stage. It's not a bug. The reason is because phone players complained many times that on their controllers. So the sensitivity is gone until the servers are split in the near future: pc, mac, xbox and ps will run on different servers unless I find a way to make it equal for everyone.


Sir zuperman,

By removing the sensitivity bar from windows pc you have now given unfair advantage to all other devices which have them. As it will be difficult to shoot head on now due to bullets trajectory and continuous movement of plane, we expect there will be more turn fight encounters in BTC/BTB missions. I have been in games where the android user just shot me down with ease in turn-fight as my plane couldn't match his plane speed.

May we request you to give the option of sensitivity bar but restrict its efficiency to 90-95% only so we (the PC users) have fair chance to fight back.

Please reconsider the option and let us know your decision.





As far as I can tell there is still a "handicap" for PCs that will be removed once the servers are segregated. Also, please note that I had written what I did about Duckwing1's ranking after Zup had said he was going to separate the servers as an explaination of why I thought it was a good idea.
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324814

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:huh:
Fate, I think your quotes are getting together and trying to make babies. :lol:

I think this is the one you were looking for:

zuperman wrote: Hi everyone,
. . . - Windows do not have a sensitivity choice. I remove it during this stage. It's not a bug. The reason is because phone players complained many times that Windows players had an unfair advantage on their controllers. So the sensitivity is gone until the servers are split in the near future: pc, mac, xbox and ps will run on different servers unless I find a way to make it equal for everyone. . . .


And no, I haven't seen any update from Zup on this.
...
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324818

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Viper10{WP} wrote:
My observations were the pc snappy response was the main advantage. I matched many a tilt player evenly within the tactical egg and even had a few tilt guys perform what equated to an oval, with the smaller radius turn at the maximum point of momentum, which was extremely hard for my pc to counter. Not many could do it, but the ones who could were superior turn fighters. I crashed into the hard deck attempting to follow those players with my constant pc turn radius... resulting in an "oof" or "dang altimeter" comment from me.


Is it possible that the advantage is something far simpler than programming? Could it come down to simple human mechanics?

It seems to me that it is inherently easier to zero in the aim on a tilt system than it is on a keyboard; thus a tablet or phone player should have some level of advantage in the head-to-head shootouts.

It also seems to me that it is a lot easier to hold a continual, level left or right turn, and to make subtle yaw adjustments (to avoid the hard deck) without oversteering by pushing on the ← or → keys than it is to do so with a tilt device. The keyboard player would enjoy a mechanical/physiological advantage in a turn fight.
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324819

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Fixed!

Lol! Thanks Dailey!

I went to quote Vivek and copy pate messed me up.. I'll take the heat for not catching it.... oh nevermind.
:pinch:

I Messed up. :blush:
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Last edit: by [NLR] McFate.

Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324837

  • Viper10{WP}
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S. E. Dailey wrote:

Viper10{WP} wrote:
My observations were the pc snappy response was the main advantage. I matched many a tilt player evenly within the tactical egg and even had a few tilt guys perform what equated to an oval, with the smaller radius turn at the maximum point of momentum, which was extremely hard for my pc to counter. Not many could do it, but the ones who could were superior turn fighters. I crashed into the hard deck attempting to follow those players with my constant pc turn radius... resulting in an "oof" or "dang altimeter" comment from me.


Is it possible that the advantage is something far simpler than programming? Could it come down to simple human mechanics?

It seems to me that it is inherently easier to zero in the aim on a tilt system than it is on a keyboard; thus a tablet or phone player should have some level of advantage in the head-to-head shootouts.

It also seems to me that it is a lot easier to hold a continual, level left or right turn, and to make subtle yaw adjustments (to avoid the hard deck) without oversteering by pushing on the ← or → keys than it is to do so with a tilt device. The keyboard player would enjoy a mechanical/physiological advantage in a turn fight.


My quoted comments were in reference to legacy and I do not wish to reopen that can of worms.

I will, however, summarize...

Viper- am I a bad player or is my pc not competitive with tilt in elite?

Dog- you're a bad player

Neb- I noticed a disparity in the different devices and measured the difference.. Viper may not be as bad as all that.

Fate- zup addressed this already so chill out viper.

Dailey- lets talk about legacy.

Viper- okay lets talk about legacy. Wait. D'oh!

How am I doing? Did I get the gist of it so far? Capture the essence of the thread? Lol im working and bored. Can you tell?








United We Prowl/Together We Howl
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Last edit: by Viper10{WP}.

Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324848

  • S. E. Dailey
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:)
I actually think that my observations and comment concerning simple human mechanics applies to either game. That was my intention at any rate. ;)
...
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #324849

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It's funny that this one has come up again.
On a laptop using keys,if you press you get instant 100% turn whereas on a tilt device its is progressive upto 100%.
On the original df,tilt players experienced exactly what is being complained about here when the pc players came on board!
It was so bad that I generally left as it was a completely unfair game at that point against a pc player.
I know zup has disabled the sensitivity on pc's at the moment,which has unfortunately reversed the issue.
I personally hope he is able to program the game somehow so that the different platforms all perform the same and we can all stay together but I'm not sure if this is technically possible or not.
It is funny though in game to see some who accused higher ranks of whinging that lowers players were getting them and that they were just better players now moan themselves!!Karma lol.
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Last edit: by _bts.

Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #325297

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Im a pc User, so, Ill like to have the sensitivity bar.
I know there are/were some players that abused so far for the others players, that is our job to report to zup, if not, we are only looking for a fair game.

best regards.
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Elite hardware discussion 7 years 11 months ago #325299

  • Gannet
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The player base in each device category is large enough for Zuperman to use a statistical approach.
I think the servers will know what kind of device a player is using in a game, and definitely knows how many kills they make.
Accumulate the data, and work out the average kills over say a week for each device type.
Keep adjusting the "settings" for each device, until all devices types are averaging the same kills per game.

Voila!
All devices can play "fairly" in the same game.
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