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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200244

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darraxx wrote: Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


Unfortunately I have to take many exceptions to what you are saying here, darraxx.

First, accusations and whining about dropping is commonplace no matter what the odds are.

Second, if you take the stance that "bombs are needed to win" then aren't the droppers at a disadvantage? You then only need to shoot down the enemys who are carrying. Classic example happened to me in a game where I was outnumbered 2/5; I bombed a hangar then evaded as the reds dropped to chase me. I got shot down, then knowing that most (maybe all) reds had dropped, I went for a sneak. Successfully!

Third, yes it is too much to ask simply because there is no consensus on what is considered appropriate. Trying to enforce rules which rely only on moderators and/or reporting is untenable. It makes for bad relations to call someone a cheat when there are no actual rules about it.

I understand your sentiments but it really is a game of war and even the maker has said "play as you want" or something to that effect.

Rules, limitations and bickering or play as you choose and others will do the same? The "Meta" comes in when there are more options of playing styles mostly because there are more tactical options..
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Last edit: by [NLR] McFate. Reason: should have proof read...:-p

The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200253

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[b]Pluribus wrote:

darraxx wrote: Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


I'll play the real devil's advocate here and say that in a 6v2 game, it's really to the advantage of the 2 that it end quickly, since the next game is more likely to be even (or more even, anyway). It does no good to prolong something where the outcome of the game is almost certainly predetermined. Unless, of course, the 2 enjoy being underdogs/slaughtered.

Late last night Dragon800 and I fought against an asortment of advisories 5 or 6 all game. In a bomb the base game we fought against droppers, campers, and sneakers. Dear Pluribus, would you like to guess the outcome? We were on the allied side, Dragon and I dropped one of our bombs a few times, but carried both most of the game. Sure the game went on for almost 2 hours, but we prevailed in the end. A great battle. We chased off most of the reds, till it was even. Then BOOM, game over. Most fun I've had in a while.

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200255

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*[M]VonHulk wrote:

[b]Pluribus wrote:

darraxx wrote: Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


I'll play the real devil's advocate here and say that in a 6v2 game, it's really to the advantage of the 2 that it end quickly, since the next game is more likely to be even (or more even, anyway). It does no good to prolong something where the outcome of the game is almost certainly predetermined. Unless, of course, the 2 enjoy being underdogs/slaughtered.

Late last night Dragon800 and I fought against an asortment of advisories 5 or 6 all game. In a bomb the base game we fought against droppers, campers, and sneakers. Dear Pluribus, would you like to guess the outcome? We were on the allied side, Dragon and I dropped one of our bombs a few times, but carried both most of the game. Sure the game went on for almost 2 hours, but we prevailed in the end. A great battle. We chased off most of the reds, till it was even. Then BOOM, game over. Most fun I've had in a while.


I'm speaking of most pilots, not superhumans like you. :) And I guess you enjoy something that seems like a challenge, but what I'd perceive as less challenging than you think. :p
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200258

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[b]Pluribus wrote:

*[M]VonHulk wrote:

[b]Pluribus wrote:

darraxx wrote: Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


I'll play the real devil's advocate here and say that in a 6v2 game, it's really to the advantage of the 2 that it end quickly, since the next game is more likely to be even (or more even, anyway). It does no good to prolong something where the outcome of the game is almost certainly predetermined. Unless, of course, the 2 enjoy being underdogs/slaughtered.

Late last night Dragon800 and I fought against an asortment of advisories 5 or 6 all game. In a bomb the base game we fought against droppers, campers, and sneakers. Dear Pluribus, would you like to guess the outcome? We were on the allied side, Dragon and I dropped one of our bombs a few times, but carried both most of the game. Sure the game went on for almost 2 hours, but we prevailed in the end. A great battle. We chased off most of the reds, till it was even. Then BOOM, game over. Most fun I've had in a while.


I'm speaking of most pilots, not superhumans like you. :) And I guess you enjoy something that seems like a challenge, but what I'd perceive as less challenging than you think. :p


Pluribus, I must disagree with you....same mentality as hulk...also...the game isn't about winning....its a game its about having fun...some of us (hulk and I included) enjoy challenging ourselves, even if it means we are the only target. I find a battle to hold of multiple morafs and several other players the most fun. why end the game? make the reds fight for their victory, don't roll over and play dead (or in your case bomb once crash and play dead for the rest of the game) when one teams decided to end a game they are loosing it just ruins the fun.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200261

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I have seen sir Pluribus fly, he is a deadly warrior. Don't let his behavior fool you. On the days he decides to fight, he rips through the map like a mad man. He calls himself the Black sheep, but he is a wolf in black sheep skin.

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200267

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*[M]VonHulk wrote: I have seen sir Pluribus fly, he is a deadly warrior. Don't let his behavior fool you. On the days he decides to fight, he rips through the map like a mad man. He calls himself the Black sheep, but he is a wolf in black sheep skin.


I want some of whatever you're smoking.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200268

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*111|Von Flush wrote:
Pluribus, I must disagree with you....same mentality as hulk...also...the game isn't about winning....its a game its about having fun...some of us (hulk and I included) enjoy challenging ourselves, even if it means we are the only target. I find a battle to hold of multiple morafs and several other players the most fun. why end the game? make the reds fight for their victory, don't roll over and play dead (or in your case bomb once crash and play dead for the rest of the game) when one teams decided to end a game they are loosing it just ruins the fun.


Frankly, I don't have enough skill for it to be fun when I'm outnumbered, or up against pilots who are at least 3-4 times better than I am (if that can be measured). If I'm up against someone where I may win only one match in a hundred, that isn't enough to make the challenge fun. It's basically like being spawnkilled in the air. :S
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200281

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I have to ask you Pluribus, when you feel there is no way to win and no use to try defending your base, why don't you just leave the game and look for one you feel you have a chance?
If you leave chanses are the underdogs get a new teammate that enjoy the challenge, and players wouldn't get annoyed or mad at you.

For me being outnumbered and overpowered is an opportunity to practice my ability to stand my ground and defend my base or carrier.
I know you can bring down the best players and the more you try the better you will get at it. So please try your best next time.
Don´t live life faster then your guardian angel can fly
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200290

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Hijacked!!!!!!!!

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200291

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McFate wrote: Hijacked!!!!!!!!


Yeah, Luna's original message was the best one in this whole thread. :)

I thought I had an interesting observation on how the changes Zup made to bombing alter strategy pretty markedly, and pretty much to the detriment of bombers. I'm not sure whether he intended that or not.

Let's get back to talking different strategies and tactics.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200446

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #200542

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Great topic. As was said earlier about the standard run up the middle head-ons, another imbalance that sometimes becomes very obvious is the extreme variances in some of the players tech advantages. Whether internet connection speed, type & size of device used, Windows 8, etc. Not complaining at all but, just examples of why trying different tactics might become desirable. No reason to keep making it so easy for another player to maintain their great K/D ratio. And I agree that just about any tactic used by one player, can be countered by another.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #202343

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McFate wrote: Rules, limitations and bickering or play as you choose and others will do the same? The "Meta" comes in when there are more options of playing styles mostly because there are more tactical options..


This sums everything up quite nicely. Thanks for your input, everyone!
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #202354

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for that matter, look for different ways to have ganar.Hoy, played against one patida that viper was one moraf and good, including me was pachorra Argento, several Spanish talked, a few ideas were enough to beat the game .. lesdije .. that? I would go for viper has who attempted to enter, I would cover them ... when I saw hera very difficult to mount the pump extratejia besides not touch tanks, as far heran harmless, really enjoyed enjoyed heading . (I think from a few we are doing to see people that there are other ways to play up great passing it lol) that good went very well bring down several times a viper, and them away rest of the base and covering my teammates was great.

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #202355

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de eso se trata, buscar diferentes maneras de ganar.Hoy he, jugado una patida que en contra estaba viper un moraf y de los buenos, conmigo estaba entre otros pachorra Argento, varios hablabamos español, bastaron unas cuantas ideas para ganarles el juego....que lesdije? que yo iria ha por viper que intentasen entrar, yo les cubriria...cuando vi que hera muy dificil con bómba monte esa extratejia ademas de no tocar a los tanques , ya que lejos heran inofensivos, lo pasamos muy bien disfrutamos mucho de la partida. (creo que entre unos pocos estamos haciendo ver a la gente que hay otras maneras de jugar encima pasandolo genial jeje) que bueno salio muy bien derribe varias veces a viper, y los demas alejandolos de la base y cubriendo a mis compañeros fue genial.

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #202552

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The only thing ive got against players is if they drop and drop and drop... or sneak and sneak and sneak, relentlessly where i cant get anyone making it no fun... (because i like to bomb). I can defiantly learn to deal with strategies such as going high or wide as long as it isn't EVERY SINGLE TIME. :cheer:
Also id love to see that team chat you were talking about :woohoo:
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204465

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Bump!

"If the game was supposed to only play head-on, then Zup would have designed the map like this-" -LF Killer
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204495

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McFate wrote: Bump!

"If the game was supposed to only play head-on, then Zup would have designed the map like this-" -LF Killer


I love this photo! I try to fly wide when teams are even but every time I do somebody, usually someone cries foul! If you are unsuccessful up the middle after a few tries is it really a good idea to continue doing it the same way?

This is a combat strategy game, so why must those up the middle guys try to control how and where I fly? And why must I have to tolerate verbal abuse and name calling just because i didnt fly the way you wanted me to?? Guess what, you dont fly the way I want you to either... LOL
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Last edit: by [NLR] Big*Joe.

The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204501

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YEMX wrote: One of the main reasons I got hooked on this game, was the tact and stratagies. Over the last few months it has gotten to the point of "If you don't fly up the center at 500 ft and die the way we tell you to. We are going to do our best to have your license to fly revoked"!

I used to get the biggest kick out FLYMAGIC dropping his famous line "magic time" as he drop from the ceiling, in for a bomb run!!!!! You used to have to think so much more about who you were up against and what there favorite stratigies are. I think the mindless head on, over and over and over. Has gotten me burned out on the game a bit.

I am however, very glad you took the time to post such a wonderful piece, on how much more fun this game can be. If we all don't try and force everyone else to die the way we want them to....


my feelings exactly, I was informed by primal only newbs think like this ;)
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204503

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Big[G.I.]Joe wrote: And why must I have to tolerate verbal abuse and name calling or respond and be told to "calm down" just because i didnt fly the way you I too play this game for fun and an escape from real life drama and being told what to do. So must i really tolerate this in game too??? Really?


Lol !

Unfortunately complaining is a part of the game too and there are no rules against it either. :S

So it comes full circle. You want the Reds to step up and accept that you will not fly where you are an easy target. Some reds are going to complain when you do. Now what?.... Your turn to step up. Play your way and let them deal with it. It's not your responsibility. As long as you are not breaking any rules, what are they going to do? :ohmy:

I suggest you find something you can feel okay with. (I don't recommend saying "STFU" lol!)

Some things which might go over better: :)

"So sorry ;) "
"Oops"
"Gotcha! "
"Maybe you'll be watching next time. ;-)"
"Meta Baby!"

I'll be watching for ya when I see your name in red. B)
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204510

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McFate wrote:

Big[G.I.]Joe wrote:
Some things which might go over better: :)

"So sorry ;) "
"Oops"
"Gotcha! "
"Maybe you'll be watching next time. ;-)"
"Meta Baby!"

I'll be watching for ya when I see your name in red. B)



I shall try these phrases maybe even add a "Oh, did i catch ya sleeping?"

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 8 months ago #204512

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or "tunnel vision kills" lol
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Last edit: by [NLR] Big*Joe.

The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #205975

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So, what can a destroy-the-enemy-hangars "Metagame" game look like?



Here are some tactical possibilities (other than just sneaking) to deal with a red dropper:


If you're in a bombing game and a red chaser starts dropping, your team can possibly counter him with one blue chaser. The funny thing is you don't need to shoot him, just keep him busy while your teammates make a run. Or if all of your team still insists on carrying, spread out so the chaser can only target one of you at a time while the others shoot at him or just focus on a run. If he goes after one of you while you're spread out, that one should drop and evade as long as possible, again keep the chaser busy as long as possible so the others with bombs can finish the run. If none of the blues drop and stay easy targets it makes it easy work for the red chaser to take out all of the blue bombers. Odds are (especially if a blue also drops) that some blues will make in to a good range to get in tanks. If one does you should consider dropping and covering that tank. Tanks often do a lot of damage, especially if they have good cover.

If all of the red team drops, as soon as a blue respawns back at your base... its perfect time for a sneak. Send one with 2 bombs up or around as everyone else is scrapping mid field. One good sneak with two bombs will put the reds on alert. If they have any sense they will start patrolling for more sneaks. This may take their chaser/dropper out of the middle of the field. In fact, some people have posted about how they've managed to draw defenders away by showing up on the maps to the side/ above or behind the enemy base. I try to do this while reds complain about me "camping". If there are no incoming blues, I will do what I can to lead as many reds away as possible. If they choose not to follow me I'll go after them. (Not over their base. That's pointless kill mongering. And it keep the reds in position to defend against blue bombers.) Many times I have managed to drag 2 or 3 dropping defenders out of the middle so incoming blues have a much better chance... There is so much going on that a chaser will not just be in the middle picking off bombers.



Come on! Can't you see? There are many ways to play these games! This is "Meta" gaming. It is where you are constantly trying to anticipate what your enemy is up to, and they are trying to do the same. If everyone opens up to the possibilities it can be a fantasticly strategic game. The alternative is what we have now: it's a game where high ranked, experienced players whine and complain about anyone who doesn't just go straight up the middle, whether ist's another experienced player or a level 6 noob who has just started playing and has almost zero chance of making a successful run straight on.

Basically, I'm saying that if one red dropper can ruin your whole geme experience, don't you think you should try something new? What good does it do to whine?


So, whine and complain, insult and shame, get upset because someone is playing "unfair" according to a game limiting mindset held by people who have been playing for a year or more, which has no "rules" to enforce it? Or step up your game, engage your brain, step outside of the straight and narrow "valley of death" and make a game which engages all types and skill levels of all players?
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #205992

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[b]Pluribus wrote:

darraxx wrote: Luna I love what you said. But to play the devils advocate. Most of the complaints about droppers is when the game is totally lopsided. When it six on two or four one one. Does the side with number actually need a dropper or someone that sneaks high or way to the side. I understand tactics but there is a need to take advantage of an already disadvantaged team. When the teams are even go for what you want play the way you feel. That's all good. But when it's six on two shouldn't overwhelming numbers still will. Its a law of statistics overwhelming fire power should always win if used properly. That's where most of the conflict comes from. Is it to much to ask for some courtesy when outnumbered for others not to drop or go sneaking. Go high if you want but please stay in the radar range. Is that so much to ask. Let the team with two at least have a fighting chance. Like said its not so much of honor but a common respect. If this respect was given to all then it should be received by all.if we could all do that this game. Would be one of the greatest games ever.


I'll play the real devil's advocate here and say that in a 6v2 game, it's really to the advantage of the 2 that it end quickly, since the next game is more likely to be even (or more even, anyway). It does no good to prolong something where the outcome of the game is almost certainly predetermined. Unless, of course, the 2 enjoy being underdogs/slaughtered.


I don't care if I'm.outnumbered I kinda like.that. I see no.reason to give up easy. I will.and do makethem.work for it I know I will.probably lose the game but its not about the win all the time. Its about fighting hard and having fun. My bitch is when its 6/2 5/1 there is no need for a dropper in the game usually people are coming in from all.directions and that fine by me. Just asking for a little courtesy in the game. Is that to much to ask anyone.

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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #206025

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Luna,

I agree and well said. Nice to read a well thought out presentation on the subject.

I've been in games and accused of dropping, when I had not. I've been in games where I had to drop due to being camped on by 2-3 planes--I was yelled at for dropping.

As you say, it's strategy and those who are upset are usually on the losing end.

I've been in plenty of games where I'm losing, but don't come up with hissy-fit excuses. I play the game, learn and be decent to fellow players on each side.

Happy flying---Dire
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #206389

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Great read Luna and others, but this really seems like a long winded way of saying, if you are about to kick the shiitake mushrooms out of someone, you can't pull any punches. And, if you're gonna pick a fight, you better be ready fot that son of bitch to pull anything out on you. But fighting is stupid and so is war. That's why in boxing and war there were rules made. But that's real life. In a game you can do what ever you want within the limits of the game. In real life war, if you shoot someone down, and they parachute out, it's a war crime toshoot down ssomeone parachuting from a disabled aircraft. Beyond that your just a dick and its unchivalrous. In dogfight, whole different animal, cause those that parachute are sometimes more lethal then fighter planes. In the beginning I didn't shoot parachuters, but then they started gettin real good; so game on. Anyway, I'm not here to discuss the finer aspects of my gameplay; whole point (and I really agree with Luna and Darrax are both saying), is don't be a dick; show some chivalry; and don't bitch in the game about people's gameplay. There's not a bigger downer for me then someone moaning about how someone plays. So unless someone is conducting themselves in an inappropriate manner, suck it up. It's how the game was made. The sooner players realize that, like many of the player in this post, the sooner those players will be able to enjoy the game that much more.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #207126

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Jacob10000 wrote: I'm not sure wh at unit of measure our altimetes use but 1,000 is in range to be seen. If you aren't watching up high then that is not my fault. As a matter of fact I don't believe that flying at any capable altitude is any form of cheating. Why have the airspace if not allowed to use it?



OMG!!! Could it be???? Another valid tactic????!!!!! :ohmy:

It can be a great way to patrol and keep an eye on the valley of death. Visibility seems to be about1200 +/- . So by flying at 1000 you are able to see from ground level to 2200m. That's high enough to catch many sneaks.

But here is another concept... get ready.....

WARNING: If you don't want to broaden your horizons you should not read any further!

It's called being a "diversion"...... a D. I .V. E. R. S. I. O. N...... not a C .H .E .A .T. !

By flying on the edge of visibility you can "bait" the reds. :blink: This can be especially effective if you fly off to the East or West. The reds will see you and often pursue, thus leaving the "Valley" open to your inbound bombers. I've been called a cheat while doing this. LOL!!!! It happened just the other day. I was allied in an even game. My team had been on a run and I got shot down first. I respawned and went East, not out of view mind you. ;) My teammates eventually got shot down and had respawned in a group behind me and were starting another run with the reds still back by their own base. I was way out in front and realized that the reds had just been defending against our tanks, so some of them may have dropped, maybe not? Anyway, as the reds came into view (3 of them flying up the middle) I was more than ½ way across the map. I did not engage at first, but waited.... "how many will flow me?".... 1-2-3.... "Hmmm... where is the other?...Oh well..." So 3 of them were pursuing and had come quite a ways from the middle. I was watching them by sliding the view over so I keep on my vector. As soon as they began firing I started jinking and dodging. Then suddenly the blues showed up on the map!

What was going through reds minds? :evil: One of them pulled off of me and went back after the blue bombers. That's when I did the unthinkable! :ohmy: I dropped! That's D.R.O.P.P.E.D. not C.H.E.A.T.E.D. Not kill mongering, not stat padding but, playing as a T.E.A.M.

I started turinng and evading , I fired a few at the red who had gone back after the incoming blues but otherwise I did not try to kill the reds. Two blues made it in to bomb. The other got shot down and I think he managed to take out a red sneak. :P


The reds called us cheats and dishonorable. For what? For going up the side while still in view? For dropping while evading 3-1 ? For not trying to shoot defenders so they would not respawn at their base and be in the perfect place to defend against incoming bombers? Or could it be that they just didn't like being outsmarted? :evil:

Bah! :woohoo:

META baby!

Adapt or die!
B)
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 7 months ago #211544

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Luna wrote:

Metagame (n)

The highest level of strategy in many complex games, metagame refers to any aspect of strategy that involves thinking about what your opponent is thinking you are thinking.

Metagame comes into play in any game where no single strategy is dominant and opposing sides are aware of multiple strategies that can succeed dependent upon opponents' actions. In order to perform at the highest level, it then becomes necessary to think about what your opponent thinks you will do (which may depend on what he thinks you think he thinks he will do, etc.) and to make decisions based on clues regarding what level they are thinking on.



It’s not a wonder why people get so antsy when you don’t play the game their way. It seems everyone's screaming about droppers and whatever, this way and that. But the truth is, every person has their own particular playstyle, and nobody likes to lose. Those are facts. When either of those two points get assaulted, people will get angry.

I’m going to echo a previous post here (#199025, fantastic words, Wig) and say; we need to start looking at Dogfight and its gameplay in a different way. You see, in many other multiplayer games (notably more strategic games), each playstyle has strengths, and weaknesses (and a “counter” who can take advantages of those weaknesses with their own strengths). In a good and well thought-out game, nothing is equal and everything is balanced.

Bear with me...

Take the simple game of rock-paper-scissors. Paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper. We all know the rules. Each choice is different, but everything is fair, and there is absolutely no room to complain. Now let’s take that simple concept and expand it to a larger and more complex scale; like say... a multiplayer WWI dogfight simulator.

If it were perfect, it could look something like this.


An Ideal Meta

Light Plane
Strengths: Fast, Agile fighter. Dominates in high numbers and close range.
Weaknesses: Low ammunition capacity, low HP, and lowest effective range. Ineffective against ground targets.

Medium Plane
Strengths: Can take on targets at a good range. Multi-capable fighter/bomber, with good HP.
Weaknesses: Less agile than lighter planes at close ranges. Limited bombing capability.

Heavy Plane
Strengths: Can decimate ground targets. High HP and ammunition capacity. Longest effective range.
Weaknesses: Low speed and agility.

With a good look and some careful thinking, one can see how this can balance out. You can play whichever playstyle you want, and you can’t complain because there is a counter to everything. With good teamwork and coordination, you can make any game interesting and engaging. But with the actual Dogfight we have now, it’s more like this:

Dogfight's Current Meta

Bomb-Holders
Strengths: Can bomb and shoot, multiple capability.
Weaknesses: Slow and less agile.

Bomb-Droppers
Strengths: Fast, agile fighter.
Weaknesses: Cannot bomb targets.

So, what do we have here? Two incomplete roles/playstyles, and lots of possibilities of imbalances. Don’t forget about the different airplanes, all of which have different stats and sizes, but yet the same mechanics (all can bomb and shoot [a super-slim plane that can do the same thing as a fatter plane, what?]). What does this encourage within the playerbase? Mindless shooting.

It turns into a game where everyone is under the illusion that all players are equal in playstyle (because of the game’s mechanics, they almost are), so if someone tries to break the currently perceived metagame (which is ridiculously simple), people will get angry. “This is OP, that is unfair, this is dumb, etc...”

Until the game developers, or the players, start changing how the game is; which is seeing that it is perfectly possible and even more so plausible for people to play differently; then this issue will never be solved. Yes, the game is still improving, but we need to make the best with what we have. Bomb dropping isn’t cheating, it’s a counter, an answer to a problem in game; much like sneaking, corkscrewing, and other frowned-upon practices. It’s an attempt to make the game more dynamic and interesting, because the current meta only offers rock and paper, but no scissors.

All of us need to ask ourselves: Is Dogfight going to be a diverse and interesting game; or are the very players going to force it into another mindless COD clone, where everyone plays the same and the person that wins is the one who simply moves faster?

And finally, for the developers: How much are you willing to sacrifice realism for balance? Someone needs to bring out the nerf guns and the buff pads, and soon.

-Luna


I really don't know how to praise LUNA who wrote this. Hats off, young lady. As I am a newbie on DF,I don't know her. But one thing is for sure. This post is one of the best ones that I have came across the forum since I started to read DF forum,from last April. I came across this post accidentally. I think no one can explain or define DF tactics & styles in more easy way than this.
I wrote this reply so that anyone who missed this post,could read this now. Ty.
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 6 months ago #211630

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hope to see this make the "cool threads", i think its as deserving as any!! :whistle:
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The Dogfight Meta 9 years 6 months ago #211670

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True!
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